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on this episode of skeptico

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okay meditation works thinking about

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thinking can change the physical

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structure of your brain that's what

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you're reporting

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but wait a minute that's a total game

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changer for science i mean 20 years ago

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if you told scientists that in material

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thoughts you know this thinking stuff

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which isn't supposed to do anything

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which is supposed to be just an

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epiphenomena of the brain if you told

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them that that can rewire your brain

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they would have laughed you out of the

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halls of academia so the one thing that

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i guess did kind of ping me as i'm

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reading the book is haven't we kind of

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buried the lead here

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well a couple things science is a

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journey of discovery right where you're

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wrong all the time and then you're that

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you're operating on a thesis that uh

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that's

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good enough and then uh somebody comes

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along and disproves it and you improve

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uh yeah there for a long time uh there

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was the idea it was received wisdom in

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in uh medical and scientific circles

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that the brain stopped changing after a

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certain age i believe but now what this

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new meditation with the new meditation

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research has proved is that the brain is

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plastic and so there's this new term

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neuroplasticity uh that in fact the

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brain is changing all the time in

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response to experience stay with us

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and on this

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episode of skeptical we ask the question

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does meditation defy science and i think

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it's a very interesting question to talk

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about with our guest

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dan harris who's written this new york

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times best-selling book 10 percent

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happier which is a book about his

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journey with meditation because i think

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like so much of the meditation

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information that has become very

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secularized and there's even some very

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high profile atheists who are

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outed as meditators and they don't

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really explain what that means

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i think we have to

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pull back to the underlying question of

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what does science say about the claims

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of meditation and i tried to do that

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with our guest and i think he did a very

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good job with it it's obviously not his

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primary focus but i think in a way he's

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the best person to ask because i think

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it gets to the question of why can't we

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pull apart the science behind meditation

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and its claims and in particular whether

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you are a biological robot whether your

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mind equals a brain whether

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consciousness is an illusion these are

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the fundamental questions that

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meditation would seem

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to challenge

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but we often don't look at those

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questions when we talk about meditation

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we just talk about being 10 happier

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which is very cool and i'm not against

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that so these are some of the topics we

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talk about in this interview we also

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talk about religion which is the other

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part that we try and pull meditation

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back from any religious claims and in

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fact meditation as it's understood as

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it's been taught does associate itself

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with some very specific religious claims

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but that's just more stuff you can pull

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out of this interview hopefully now i do

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have a couple of questions along these

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lines to tee up afterwards and some more

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thoughts so stick around for all of that

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here's my interview with dan harris

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today we welcome emmy award-winning

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journalist and all-around abc news rock

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star dan harris to skeptical dan is here

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to talk about his recent number one new

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york times best-selling book 10

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happier how i tamed the voice inside my

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head reduced stress without losing my

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edge and found self-help that actually

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works a true story dan it's great to

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have you on skeptico thanks so much for

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joining me

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thanks for having me man appreciate it

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so your book has been a tremendous

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inspiration to thousands of people

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getting them to try mindfulness

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meditation even if they're skeptical of

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the spiritual trimmings that often are

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associated with meditation of any kind

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so

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tell folks a little bit about how you

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went from skeptic to believer

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well it's a bit of a yarn

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i guess if you want the whole story you

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can read the book although you don't

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have to read the book uh by any by any

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means you don't have to read it but but

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uh the the short version is um i had a

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panic attack on national television

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uh on good morning america back in 2004

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that was the result of some very dumb

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behavior in my personal life i had

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i had spent a lot of time in war zones

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as a reporter and and frankly had not

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thought about what the psychological

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consequences might be and then then i

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sort of got depressed and very stupidly

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self-medicated with recreational drugs

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uh including cocaine and and that

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i later learned you know artificially

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raised the level of adrenal adrenaline

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in my brain and and

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helped

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provoke this panic attack on live

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television um

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and that through a sort of not just on

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live television this is good moaning

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america right so this is like millions

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of people watching

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yeah

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5.019 million people uh

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according to the nielsen ratings

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and yeah i just basically lost the

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ability to breathe or continue speaking

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um in the middle of my little newscast

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and i had to sort of put it in the

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middle and toss it back to the main

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hosts of the show who at that time were

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diane sawyer and charlie gibson and

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um and that that kind of set me on a

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a long road that ultimately led to

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meditation but but i i i

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i would just say the least

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skeptical

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about meditation i i thought it was only

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for

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hippies and freaks and and people who

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are really into aromatherapy and john

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tesh and ultimate frisbee

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uh and who used the word namaste

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unironically and i was you know not at

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all your typical meditator and what

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changed my mind was really the science

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uh and that that there's a

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there's been an explosion of scientific

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research into the benefits of meditation

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which um is still in its early stages to

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be sure but it's

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strongly suggest that there's a long

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list of health benefits including you

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know lowering your blood pressure

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boosting your immune system and most

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intriguingly you know rewiring key parts

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of your brain and that's really what got

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me into uh that would that's what put me

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over the hump

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right and the book 10 happier is really

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i think engaging because it does

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chronicle that story of and it mixes in

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all these cool little stories about

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being a journalist at that level but it

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it really chronicles this

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mission that you're on to kind of sort

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through all this stuff

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tell folks a little bit i found it

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interesting the title of your book kind

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of has an interesting

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story behind it what do you mean by 10

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percent happier and it's a little bit of

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a joke and i love a little bit of a joke

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in there because it's got an interesting

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twist to it

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yeah yeah it's it's absurdly uh

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unscientific uh i am not actually

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promising a ten percent happiness booth

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when i when i first got interested in

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meditation it was uh hard to explain to

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my colleagues in the uh hard bitten news

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uh news universe and i struggled with

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how to communicate about it and

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sometimes i would just clam up and get

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all weird and awkward and other times i

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would get

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off-puttingly overly emphatic about all

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the benefits

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and i couldn't figure out how to strike

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a night balance in the middle and then

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one day i was having um

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another in a long series of uh of

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conversations with uh colleagues that

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that ran along the lines of um why are

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you meditating what's the matter with

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you or something along those lines and i

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was having this conversation with my

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friend chris who i'd known for a long

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time and

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she she was

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asking me about the meditation thing and

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i and i just blurted out oh i do because

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it makes me about 10 happy

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and in that moment i could see that the

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look of scorn on her face was

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transformed to something approaching

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interest

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and i realized that that was this was my

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stick this is the right way to pitch

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this because

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for too long uh in the worlds of

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self-help and spirituality people have

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been promising silver bullets and they

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don't exist

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and

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uh

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so instead of peddling reckless hope it

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seemed to me that i could uh reposition

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you know something that is a significant

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value add is a good return on investment

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et cetera et cetera but isn't gonna you

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know fix everything yeah now there's

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some interesting parts of that that

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we're gonna wanna pull apart or i'm

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gonna wanna pull apart but i i do

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respect and really

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understand the need to kind of bypass

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the whole culture war debate about

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science spirituality and that whole

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thing which i think you do and and that

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transcends it with that one ten percent

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happier you want to be ten percent

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happier take a look you know but as you

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alluded to before what really hooked you

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in

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is the research so tell folks

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thumbnail sketch of what you found

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because you talked to some of the top

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neuroscientists from universities like

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harvard and yale and all the right

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uh well when it comes to the

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neuroscience which i think is truly the

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most interesting stuff um

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and again i can't emphasize strongly

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enough that this this this body of

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research is really still in its infancy

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but the early findings

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indicate that you're essentially sort of

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performing a version of neurosurgery on

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yourself when you meditate you're

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changing your own brain

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and

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um

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i'll give you just one study in

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particular that i think is compelling

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it's done in 2011 at harvard where they

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took people who had never meditated

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before

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uh and they gave them a an eight week

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meditation class by which i don't mean

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that they were like doing nothing but

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meditating all day just that they were

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doing short daily doses of meditation

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over the course of eight weeks and they

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scanned their brains at the beginning of

281
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those eight weeks and then at the end of

282
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the eight weeks after the class and what

283
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:49,680
they found is that the area that in the

284
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areas of the brain associated with

285
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self-awareness

286
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:56,560
and compassion the gray matter literally

287
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:58,800
grew and in the area of the brain

288
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associated with stress the gray matter

289
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literally shrank

290
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:04,640
so that's just one particularly juicy

291
00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:06,720
little nugget but there's there are

292
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:08,240
loads of other examples i can give you

293
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,079
depending on how much time you have that

294
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:12,079
really speak to

295
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uh the potential power of this practice

296
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:16,720
and which is a very simple

297
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and secular practice yeah that that

298
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,640
secular part is kind of interesting

299
00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:22,160
we'll get into that but you know

300
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:23,920
stopping right there on the science full

301
00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:26,640
stop because okay meditation works

302
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,320
thinking about thinking can change the

303
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:30,079
physical structure of your brain that's

304
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:31,680
what you're reporting

305
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:34,560
but wait a minute that's a total game

306
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:37,920
changer for science i mean 20 years ago

307
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:41,279
if you told scientists that immaterial

308
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:43,200
thoughts you know this thinking stuff

309
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:45,040
which isn't supposed to do anything

310
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:46,240
which is supposed to be just an

311
00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:49,040
epiphenomenon of the brain if you told

312
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:52,079
them that that can rewire your brain

313
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:53,920
they would have laughed you out of the

314
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:57,120
halls of academia so the one thing that

315
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,360
i guess did kind of ping me as i'm

316
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:01,360
reading the book is haven't we kind of

317
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,800
buried the lead here with this research

318
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:05,920
that's so

319
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,240
is kind of obscure to most people

320
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:10,480
hopefully not with your book

321
00:12:14,550 --> 00:12:12,320
that's bringing it to the fore but this

322
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:14,560
is really a game changer for science i

323
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:16,800
think in a fundamental way that can kind

324
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:18,959
of get downplayed with uh just oh it's

325
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:20,720
just meditation don't worry about its

326
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,120
stuff do you have any thoughts on that

327
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:25,920
well a couple things one um

328
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:27,040
science

329
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:28,399
is uh

330
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,519
a

331
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:30,959
um

332
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:33,120
a journey of discovery right where

333
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,120
you're wrong all the time and you're

334
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:37,680
that you're operating on a thesis that

335
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:38,959
uh that's

336
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:41,600
good enough and then uh somebody comes

337
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:44,000
along and disproves it and you improve

338
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:46,959
uh and that's just the way science works

339
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:49,040
uh and so

340
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:52,160
yeah there for a long time uh there was

341
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,399
the idea it was received wisdom in in

342
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:58,959
medical and scientific um

343
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:01,200
circles that the brain stopped changing

344
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,040
after a certain age i believe

345
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:05,440
maybe in your early 20s but now what

346
00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:06,880
this new meditation with the new

347
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,880
meditation research has proved is that

348
00:13:11,629 --> 00:13:10,639
the brain is plastic and so there's this

349
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:11,639
new term

350
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:13,839
neuroplasticity uh that in fact the

351
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:15,920
brain is changing all the time in

352
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,360
response to experience and um

353
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:21,200
and which means that you can train the

354
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:24,800
brain which is an enormously liberating

355
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,600
idea because i think a lot of us assume

356
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:29,600
either consciously or subconsciously

357
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,360
that happiness

358
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:32,880
is contingent

359
00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:36,079
solely upon exogenous factors such as

360
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:38,000
the quality of our childhood what's

361
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:39,839
happening at work how are things going

362
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:42,160
in our marriage etc etc

363
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:43,440
not to say that those things aren't

364
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,399
important they are important but in fact

365
00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:49,040
happiness can actually be a skill for

366
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:51,200
which you train yourself just the way

367
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:53,600
you train your body in the gym that it

368
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,040
is susceptible

369
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,079
to training um and

370
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,720
i i just think that that that that puts

371
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,880
a lot of the responsibility on you but

372
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:04,720
it is liberating that because it's not

373
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:07,519
all out of your control and that and

374
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:10,160
what meditation teaches you to do is to

375
00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:13,279
it's not going to erase your problems

376
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:15,920
it it it just helps you see them and

377
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,600
handle them differently it puts you in a

378
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,680
different relationship to the problem

379
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:21,920
and that's a huge value add but there's

380
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:23,920
just one little tweak i would in your

381
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:25,279
question this is going back several

382
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:26,399
minutes now

383
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,360
you use the term thinking about thinking

384
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:31,120
but in fact it's different you aren't

385
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,880
thinking about thinking you're being

386
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,880
aware of thinking

387
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:36,959
that's a great point but it kind of begs

388
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:39,920
the question then again who is aware i

389
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:42,880
mean this is you're wrapping it into a

390
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:45,360
really nice package which is awesome and

391
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:47,279
i really really respect that and i think

392
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:48,800
everyone should

393
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,199
everyone who whose interest is peaked

394
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:53,279
who isn't meditating would really

395
00:14:57,829 --> 00:14:55,680
benefit from 10 percent happier because

396
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:57,839
it really hooks you in but i do think

397
00:15:03,509 --> 00:14:59,760
we're kind of glossing over the

398
00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:03,519
monumental shift in science that that is

399
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:04,320
in

400
00:15:10,949 --> 00:15:07,760
implied not implied but directly

401
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:10,959
suggested by this by this work and that

402
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:12,639
is that you know i mean you want to

403
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:14,480
break it down into fundamental science

404
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,320
take evolution right

405
00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:19,360
that's the biggest culture war science

406
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,959
debate going well what causes species

407
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:25,040
change well there's only two things

408
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:27,760
right there's genetic mutation and

409
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:29,920
there's response to

410
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:32,560
our environment well now we can add a

411
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:35,040
third thing because apparently from what

412
00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:36,480
you're saying what this research

413
00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:37,760
suggests

414
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:39,320
is that this self-directed

415
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:42,480
neuroplasticity can actually change our

416
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:44,959
physical structure i mean these are the

417
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:46,800
kind of issues these consciousness

418
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:49,279
issues have always been at the heart of

419
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,519
scientific debates for the longest time

420
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:53,519
and i love the idea that oh science will

421
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:55,600
just catch up science will evolve and

422
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:57,680
figure itself out but it certainly

423
00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:59,759
hasn't in the last you know this

424
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:02,079
research has been out there for 25 years

425
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:04,880
we haven't seen any monumental shift so

426
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,560
i love the way you're doing an end run

427
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,800
on it but do we need to confront these

428
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:11,199
fundamental paradigm busting

429
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:14,399
implications of this science or is that

430
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:22,550
i'm not sure i follow you entirely um

431
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:24,000
the

432
00:16:27,269 --> 00:16:24,800
you know

433
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,279
when i talk about the ability to

434
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:29,600
change the structure of the brain i mean

435
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,440
i think about that more like

436
00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:33,600
exercise changing the structure of the

437
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:34,839
body

438
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,399
um

439
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:37,680
so

440
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:40,399
what paradigm are you referring to being

441
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:41,440
busted

442
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:45,600
well i mean materialism suggests that

443
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:48,000
there is no consciousness there is no

444
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:50,320
voice inside your head it's an illusion

445
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,759
right i mean

446
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:53,519
richard dawkins you're a biological

447
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,079
robot daniel dennett consciousness is an

448
00:17:01,829 --> 00:16:58,480
illusion i mean these guys are voicing

449
00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:01,839
what science has held to dearly for you

450
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:04,160
know as long as the last hundred years

451
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:05,199
that

452
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:07,839
he there's just matter there is no

453
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:12,789
well i mean i think that's the

454
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:16,079
fundamental mystery isn't it right that

455
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:18,640
we know that we know things in other

456
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:20,559
words we know that we're having

457
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:21,839
experiences

458
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,360
but we don't know

459
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:25,679
who it is that is experiencing it like

460
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,799
we you close your eyes and look for

461
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,320
alex

462
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:32,480
you're not going to find him in any

463
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,080
solid form

464
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:36,640
uh and i don't know the answer to that

465
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:37,520
question

466
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:38,799
um

467
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,520
and i would i i would

468
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:44,160
i would i would just venture to say that

469
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,000
you probably don't either um it is one

470
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,160
of the biggest mysteries with one of the

471
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:49,679
fundamental mysteries the mysteries of

472
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:51,679
consciousness so

473
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:53,919
i mean i certainly think that meditation

474
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:55,280
brings you

475
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:57,039
right up to the end of that mystery but

476
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,080
i don't know that it answers it

477
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,559
let's talk a little bit more about these

478
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:04,559
culture war issues

479
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:07,520
after all before being uh

480
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:09,120
embedded in

481
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:11,440
iraq as a war correspondent you were

482
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:12,960
embedded in the culture where debate on

483
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,760
religion by your former boss there at

484
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:18,000
abc news peter jennings

485
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:19,520
so you know

486
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:22,720
what a hot culture war debate goes on

487
00:18:26,549 --> 00:18:25,440
about science and spirituality and just

488
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:26,559
about

489
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:28,799
how how religion should fit into our

490
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,559
culture

491
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:33,039
how do you manage and sort out the

492
00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:34,240
spiritual

493
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,600
and religious

494
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:37,840
implications and connections of this

495
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:40,559
meditation practice that you've become a

496
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:42,640
part of and just in general the

497
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:45,679
meditation phenomena if you will

498
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:47,520
you know on the one hand it's simple

499
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:49,679
right on the one hand

500
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:50,960
um

501
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:54,950
30 years ago

502
00:19:00,310 --> 00:18:57,919
a molecular biologist from mit by the

503
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,320
name of john kabat-zinn was at a

504
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:02,640
buddhist meditation center and had a

505
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:05,600
flash of insight and the insight was

506
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:10,549
all these skills that we're learning in

507
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:13,039
a buddhist context

508
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,640
could be taken out of the buddhist

509
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:17,039
context stripped of the theology script

510
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:20,799
of the metaphysics and taught simply as

511
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:23,039
um

512
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:25,120
mind training uh

513
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:28,080
and he calls it mindfulness-based stress

514
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:31,440
production and it is completely secular

515
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,640
and now

516
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:34,000
uh because

517
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:37,360
john kavan taught it in a it created a

518
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:39,200
paradigm in which it could be taught a

519
00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:40,559
protocol in which you could be taught

520
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:42,320
over the course of eight weeks has now

521
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:43,679
been the the

522
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,480
focus of

523
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:48,080
an enormous amount of scientific

524
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,400
research uh and

525
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:52,799
uh so we now have a simple secular and

526
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:54,880
scientifically validated way to teach

527
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:57,360
people to meditate um

528
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:59,919
and so in some ways that kind of just

529
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:01,440
takes it out of the culture wars

530
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:02,559
entirely

531
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:03,840
um

532
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:05,280
but it's

533
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:08,320
not that simple on another level because

534
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:11,679
there's just no question and uh and i

535
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,280
think that this argument is going to

536
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,600
start to be made more vocally as

537
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:17,600
meditation seeps more strongly into the

538
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:19,440
mainstream there's just no question that

539
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:20,640
meditation

540
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:23,600
derives from an eastern religion

541
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:24,480
um

542
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:25,919
and as it

543
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,520
and we've already seen this happen a few

544
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:29,600
times as it starts as mindfulness

545
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:32,240
meditation starts to be taught in

546
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:35,760
schools and and workplaces we're gonna

547
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:39,360
see people of faith saying no no no

548
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,480
uh i do not approve and uh so we're

549
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:44,000
gonna have to work this out now it

550
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,600
happens to be my view and now i'm just

551
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:47,840
speaking as

552
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,720
the person not as dan the uh abc news

553
00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:52,960
anchorman it happens to be my view that

554
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:54,320
that um

555
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:56,159
mindfulness

556
00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:59,760
is an innate human capacity

557
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:02,640
uh and it is not a buddhist thing per se

558
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:06,080
the buddha spent 2500 years describing

559
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,600
it very well

560
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,080
but to teach somebody to boost their

561
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:12,720
ability to be mindful of their own you

562
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:15,120
know more michael about their own your

563
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:17,919
life is not necessarily a buddhist thing

564
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:20,159
just as teaching somebody algebra isn't

565
00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:22,799
necessarily a muslim thing just because

566
00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:26,080
it was invented and perfected by arabs

567
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,840
in baghdad or whatever uh how however

568
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,640
many uh

569
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:32,559
millennia ago

570
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,400
isn't it a little bit more tricky than

571
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:36,400
that you know i live here in san diego

572
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,720
and about 30 miles outside of town

573
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:41,039
there's a zen monastery that was started

574
00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:44,080
by very famous vietnamese buddhist monk

575
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:46,480
named tiknot han awesome guy you know

576
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:48,960
nominated for nobel prize for his work

577
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:51,039
um and i've been out there several times

578
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:53,760
it's a wonderful place and they teach

579
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:56,080
mindfulness meditation because as you

580
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:57,360
just said that's what they've done for

581
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:58,640
thousands of years

582
00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:02,000
and if anyone experiences a zen-based

583
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:04,320
mindfulness meditation i mean it is

584
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:05,760
exactly what you're talking about i mean

585
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,400
there's no theology in there there's no

586
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,280
uh text that you have to read mantras

587
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:13,520
that you have to say it is just zen it

588
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:16,559
is sit and and be aware so i i think you

589
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:19,120
know john cabot zen great deserves a lot

590
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,320
of uh

591
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:22,080
credit for what he did but you know i

592
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:25,039
can also take dr alan wallace who i've

593
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:26,880
interviewed on this show several times

594
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,039
highly skilled in

595
00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:31,120
tibetan buddhism and very close to the

596
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:33,200
dalai lama has done the same thing has

597
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:35,760
taken meditation into the lab and done

598
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:38,400
it and you know made it secular but at

599
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,120
the core of this what these teachers

600
00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:42,960
will tell you and all these zen

601
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:45,200
practitioners will tell you is that the

602
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:47,360
spirituality is inseparable so you can

603
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:49,840
go search for it if you want or not

604
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,840
search for it but it's going to find you

605
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:54,159
by going through the process and i think

606
00:22:58,950 --> 00:22:56,960
they'd also say and here's the the part

607
00:23:01,110 --> 00:22:58,960
that i guess i i guess i'd like you to

608
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:01,120
kind of sort out because it's tricky

609
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,360
because on one hand a lot of people look

610
00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:04,799
at buddhism and say well that's not

611
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:07,280
really a religion it's more of a process

612
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:09,679
it's more of a science of uh

613
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,000
introspection which it is but at the

614
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,559
same time tiknot han and the dalai lama

615
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:16,960
as well have said hey this is no

616
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:18,640
different than christianity you know

617
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,720
tiknon han living buddha living christ

618
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:22,400
he's saying you know you just get on

619
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:24,720
this path however you start it and you

620
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,640
are on the spiritual path it's

621
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:28,720
undeniable so

622
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:31,840
is it really can we really

623
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:34,799
take it and make it secular or as you

624
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:37,520
meditate are you moving down some

625
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:40,080
spiritual path because that's what all

626
00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:40,960
these

627
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,280
practitioners who have thousands and

628
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:45,360
millions and millions of hours that's

629
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:48,080
what they tell us is happening

630
00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:51,440
well let me say a bunch of things um

631
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,280
one is

632
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:55,039
i have no

633
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:57,200
i have like such a small fraction of

634
00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:58,559
experience compared to somebody like

635
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:01,520
kiknot han or the dalai lama

636
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:05,200
or alan wallace uh that

637
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,679
that anything i say you and all of your

638
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:09,360
listeners should take with a massive

639
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:11,840
grain of salt because i know buck has

640
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,080
compared to them so

641
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:16,799
having said that um just a couple of

642
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:18,080
things that come to mind based on what

643
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,520
you said

644
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:21,360
i think it's everybody's going to

645
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:23,200
practice to the extent that

646
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:25,279
anybody is practicing at all

647
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:27,039
it will be at different levels we will

648
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:29,440
all practice at different levels and so

649
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:32,080
some of us if we take a secular

650
00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:33,520
mindfulness class

651
00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:35,200
it will be something that makes us less

652
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:37,840
emotionally reactive and

653
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:40,400
better able to focus and maybe calmer

654
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,600
but it's not going to take us into

655
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:45,520
the mystery of consciousness

656
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:47,520
or to

657
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:49,200
force us to

658
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,039
um

659
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,760
uh into the same territory that the

660
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,840
dalai lama and chicano

661
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,360
are talking about

662
00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:58,720
um

663
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:00,960
however in some cases it may

664
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:04,720
and um i heard it argued that perhaps

665
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:07,520
all spokes lead to the hub that all

666
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,440
great religions

667
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,320
at the core have something in common and

668
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,480
once you start down any path

669
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:17,039
you sort of end up if you're doing it in

670
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:18,640
the right way you'll you'll end up at

671
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:21,039
the heart of all paths so maybe that's

672
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:22,720
true i just am such a low-level

673
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:24,559
practitioner that i can't say so from

674
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:26,799
personal experience uh and then the

675
00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:29,200
third thing i'd say just is is that look

676
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,039
you know

677
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,960
i've struggled a little bit with how to

678
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:35,120
position myself in this debate because

679
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,480
the truth of the matter is i'm a

680
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:38,400
buddhist right so

681
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:40,480
i'm all for you know mostly when i talk

682
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:42,640
about meditation i emphasize how secular

683
00:25:45,909 --> 00:25:44,240
it is but like

684
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:45,919
if i'm going to be honest with myself

685
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:49,760
and with you i'm a buddhist now

686
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:52,000
that is actually that means less and

687
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:53,919
more than you might think

688
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,559
i mean less than you might think because

689
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,480
i actually think that buddhism is not at

690
00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:00,720
least as i understand or practice it a

691
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:01,600
faith

692
00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:02,480
um

693
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:04,559
i am a big fan of a buddhist writer by

694
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:06,720
the name of stephen bachelor who has

695
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:08,559
said that buddhism is not something to

696
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:11,279
believe in it's something to do

697
00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:12,960
and that is the kind of buddhism i

698
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:15,679
practice which is a um

699
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:17,279
a way of being in the world where you

700
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:18,640
are training yourself as much as

701
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:20,480
possible to be self-aware and

702
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:22,000
compassionate to the best of your

703
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:23,039
ability

704
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:26,320
as systematically as possible

705
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:27,760
so

706
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,279
means less because it's not a faith and

707
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:33,360
more because actually this is a really

708
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,720
compelling way to live your life and a

709
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:36,320
lot of people might want to consider

710
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:38,720
hopping on board um

711
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:39,679
and those

712
00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:42,559
consider hopping on board some of them

713
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:45,279
might be christians or jews or muslims

714
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,039
or atheists with deeply held beliefs

715
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:50,640
and i actually think buddhism can

716
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,720
coexist with all that nicely because

717
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:54,640
it's just about

718
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:56,400
um you know at least on the level that

719
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:58,720
i'm practicing it's just about getting

720
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,919
more mindful

721
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,360
more compassionate

722
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:03,360
awesome and i love that i love the big

723
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:06,480
tent approach on the other hand i do

724
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:08,320
have to kind of draw out a distinction

725
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:10,880
there i mean what part of buddhism are

726
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:12,400
we going to leave behind are you going

727
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:13,600
to leave behind

728
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:15,200
reincarnation are you going to leave

729
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:18,799
behind karma i mean these are core ideas

730
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,520
that the the buddha not taught but

731
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,200
discovered and

732
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:25,760
subsequent people have discovered for as

733
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:28,559
you said for thousands of years now

734
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:30,240
i don't know can we just leave those

735
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,159
behind and say

736
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:34,480
say one they're not true or do we say we

737
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:36,000
don't have to decide if they're true i

738
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:36,799
mean

739
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:38,559
how do we sort that out

740
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,320
i said we don't have to decide i mean

741
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:42,720
the the beauty of the buddha and the

742
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:44,159
reason why the buddha is a guy that

743
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:46,720
skeptics like me can line up behind is

744
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:49,840
he didn't he didn't envision anything

745
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:52,880
like buddhism he was not founding a

746
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:54,640
religion right but he was clear about

747
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,720
carmen reincarnation we can't take that

748
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:58,080
out of the equation

749
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:59,679
yes but you didn't let me finish because

750
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:01,200
the other thing that's awesome about him

751
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,279
if he said i'm going to make a few

752
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:05,679
metaphysical claims but you

753
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:08,799
my followers don't have to believe them

754
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:11,200
take them or leave them find out for

755
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:14,320
yourself and that is

756
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,039
why buddhism is so attractive to so many

757
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,360
people of science and so many people of

758
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:20,880
no faith like me

759
00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:22,159
because

760
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:24,480
he he talks about this stuff and he

761
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,840
clearly believes it and a lot of his

762
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:27,600
followers do but he's like you know you

763
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:30,000
don't have to you can be a good

764
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:32,399
practicing buddhist or he would call a

765
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:35,440
biku meaning just somebody who meditates

766
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:37,840
um without embracing

767
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,840
things that you can't prove

768
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,960
and

769
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:42,559
maybe through the depths of your

770
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:44,399
practice you might encounter

771
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:46,880
subjective proof of these things but

772
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:49,440
that's that's your thing um and so

773
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:51,840
that's the way i practice it which is i

774
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,720
kind of

775
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:53,600
i

776
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,760
someday somebody could prove

777
00:29:03,029 --> 00:29:01,279
some of this stuff or maybe i'll have

778
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:03,039
some experience that makes me believe

779
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:05,039
it's real but at this point i'm not

780
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:06,399
there but that doesn't mean i'm

781
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:10,480
discouraged on any level from pursuing

782
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,240
my practice of buddhism and just one

783
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:14,000
last thing you know i interviewed the

784
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:16,880
dalai lama and i was a little skeptical

785
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,320
going into my interview with the dalai

786
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:20,720
lama because he kind of represents the

787
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:23,120
the version of buddhism with which i am

788
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:24,559
least comfortable because you know he

789
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:26,880
goes by the name his holiness and you

790
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:29,679
know like there's a lot of sectarian

791
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:30,799
stuff that

792
00:29:35,669 --> 00:29:33,679
swirls around he's just doing the 10

793
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:35,679
happier stuff dan that's just his form

794
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:38,240
of 10 happier but go ahead

795
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:41,520
but anyway so i interviewed him and and

796
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:42,960
i asked him you know look what if

797
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:44,000
science

798
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:45,600
disproved

799
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:47,600
reincarnation he was like i would drop

800
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:48,480
it

801
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:52,320
disproves anything that is part of my

802
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:54,720
theology i will disregard it i will

803
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:57,039
disregard the theology not the science

804
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:00,480
so to me that speaks that is such a that

805
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:03,919
is just a reassuring notion that the guy

806
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,240
who we most associate with buddhism is

807
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:08,399
like look science trumps everything the

808
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:10,880
truth trumps everything i totally i

809
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,320
totally agree with you i think that's

810
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:14,399
awesome i wish there was a reciprocal

811
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:15,840
kind of uh

812
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:17,440
relationship there i mean go to the

813
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:19,360
university of virginia ian stevenson

814
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:21,440
who's now passed away but jim tucker

815
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,360
i've interviewed on on this show i mean

816
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:25,200
they've proven reincarnation and

817
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:26,880
published it in peer-reviewed journals

818
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:28,240
over and over again research that

819
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:30,799
everyone says is outstanding but it

820
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:32,640
doesn't turn the ship tell you what one

821
00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:34,960
last area i i just want to touch on and

822
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,559
i really do appreciate

823
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:38,320
your time and i really appreciate the

824
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:40,720
book 10 happier which you really do have

825
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:42,880
to check out if you haven't by now heard

826
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,720
about it i don't know how but you do

827
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:46,320
need to check it out one of the scenes

828
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,039
from the book that i thought was really

829
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:51,440
interesting from a skeptical perspective

830
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:54,799
is this debate between new age guru

831
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:57,840
depak chopra and well-known atheist sam

832
00:31:02,630 --> 00:30:59,840
harris and it's a great scene from the

833
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:02,640
book because as it plays out depak kind

834
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:05,600
of gets crushed in this debate

835
00:31:11,510 --> 00:31:08,640
but for the wrong reasons i mean he's

836
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,520
reporting on the same scientific

837
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:13,279
discoveries you are he's saying hey

838
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:15,039
science has always told you you're a

839
00:31:19,269 --> 00:31:17,360
biological robot driven by your brain

840
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,279
that it's all just material you know

841
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:21,200
there can be no soul there can be no

842
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,000
consciousness and now this science says

843
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:26,640
it's not true well sam harris because

844
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:29,279
he's very skilled debater he doesn't

845
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:32,320
refute any of this he just kind of plays

846
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:34,960
to the crowd that is predisposed to say

847
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:37,440
oh science good new age

848
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,000
you know guru is bad and kind of turns

849
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:42,640
the thing on its head

850
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:44,320
what are what are your thoughts about

851
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:46,559
how that debate played out

852
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,320
my thought is i don't know enough to say

853
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:50,320
anything spark um

854
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,880
positive on these issues and and i think

855
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:54,640
it's fascinating just as soon as you

856
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:56,320
start talking about the scientific

857
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:58,320
research about reincarnation i want i

858
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,880
made a mental note to myself to ask you

859
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:02,640
to email me that information because i

860
00:32:06,789 --> 00:32:04,559
think it's fascinating and i think a lot

861
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:06,799
of the issues that deepak raises are

862
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:10,240
fascinating um i just don't he talks in

863
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:12,399
such a way that i find it almost

864
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:14,880
impossible not almost fully impossible

865
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:16,559
to understand

866
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:19,440
yeah no i get you you know it's it it's

867
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,679
beyond my current understanding

868
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:23,679
i would like to understand it so that at

869
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:25,279
some point in my life i could be on your

870
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:26,320
podcast

871
00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:29,519
and answer questions um cogently um

872
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,720
but i just would say one last thing

873
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,640
about sam harris which is you might want

874
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:34,559
to take a look at his most recent book

875
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:36,720
called waking up um

876
00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:38,320
in which he talks about the fact that

877
00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:40,559
he's a lifelong meditator and

878
00:32:46,389 --> 00:32:44,080
uh it's basically uh one part memoir one

879
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:46,399
part top science and one part

880
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,519
um

881
00:32:54,830 --> 00:32:48,880
uh

882
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:54,840
we need to have

883
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:57,840
a rel um a spirituality that is divorced

884
00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:00,559
from religion and uh

885
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:01,600
uh

886
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,200
and i i think you might find it

887
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:05,120
interesting i think he's he's less

888
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:06,720
hostile to some of these ideas than you

889
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,080
might imagine

890
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:10,480
my friend rick archer who you spoke with

891
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:11,919
and who introduced me i think had the

892
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:14,159
best in private conversation i hope i'm

893
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:15,679
not outing him here but he had the best

894
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:18,799
thing about um sam harris he said he

895
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:21,120
reminds me of a guy with one foot on the

896
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:23,760
dock and one foot in the boat and uh

897
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:25,519
that's kind of how i feel i think he

898
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:27,760
needs to sort that out before uh before

899
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:30,159
we go too much further but you have done

900
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,519
like i said you're the bodhisattva

901
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:33,360
that's gone over and come back for the

902
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:35,360
rest of us you've done a tremendous job

903
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:38,320
with this book 10 happier thank you so

904
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:40,159
much for spending this time with us dan

905
00:33:43,269 --> 00:33:41,840
and best of luck to you

906
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,279
my pleasure thank you very much for

907
00:33:47,350 --> 00:33:45,600
having me out i appreciate it

908
00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:47,360
thanks again to dan harris for joining

909
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:49,760
me today on skeptico i guess the natural

910
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:52,000
question to tee up from this interview

911
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,039
is

912
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:55,440
does meditation defy science as we know

913
00:34:01,350 --> 00:33:58,880
it and i cannot resist answering that

914
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,360
question as i know you know i have so

915
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:04,320
many times i think it absolutely does

916
00:34:10,869 --> 00:34:08,240
defy this idea that consciousness is an

917
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:10,879
illusion that consciousness is an

918
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:13,280
epiphenomena of the brain i don't think

919
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:15,760
there's any other way to interpret the

920
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:18,960
data i think neuroplasticity

921
00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:21,520
as we know from talking to ucla school

922
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:23,359
of medicine psychiatrist and

923
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:24,800
psychologist

924
00:34:30,109 --> 00:34:27,760
dr jeffrey schwartz who really pioneered

925
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:30,119
the work into self-directed

926
00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:32,560
neuroplasticity that's the conclusion

927
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:34,960
that he comes to i think it's the only

928
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:37,440
logical conclusion to come to

929
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:39,919
the prior assumption was that

930
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:42,879
consciousness is an illusion and one of

931
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:45,119
the definitions of it being an illusion

932
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:48,399
is it cannot do any work consciousness

933
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:51,679
can't do anything if consciousness can

934
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:55,040
do something then it's not an illusion

935
00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:57,839
illusions can't do anything but here

936
00:35:01,430 --> 00:35:00,480
we've clearly shown that consciousness

937
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:01,440
can

938
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:03,920
do something your thoughts your

939
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,480
immaterial thoughts can change the

940
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:09,200
structure of your brain and i think that

941
00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:12,079
blows our materialistic understanding of

942
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:14,720
consciousness out of the water but there

943
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,720
you go i've kind of said that before i'm

944
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,040
just kind of saying it again in order to

945
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:21,599
tee it up and get your thought and your

946
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:23,760
ideas about that question of course the

947
00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:26,000
place to do that is well

948
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:28,560
i hope there's many places to do that

949
00:35:33,069 --> 00:35:31,359
but one is through the skeptico website

950
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:33,079
at

951
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:35,599
s-k-e-p-t-i-k-o dot com you can leave a

952
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:37,520
comment right there or what i really

953
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,880
hope you do

954
00:35:43,390 --> 00:35:41,440
is go over to the skeptical forum at

955
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:43,400
skeptico dash

956
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:46,640
forum.com and join the discussion there

957
00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:48,560
there's a lot of people that come

958
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:50,640
they leave they post for a few months

959
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:52,079
and then they leave and which is

960
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,640
fantastic i think that's great so just

961
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:56,720
if you're interested in one show it's

962
00:36:02,230 --> 00:35:59,440
not a lifetime commitment to sign up to

963
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:02,240
the forum and to post comments but i

964
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:03,839
think what it does do is it provides

965
00:36:08,790 --> 00:36:05,200
some really

966
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,800
in-depth intelligent debate i'm amazed

967
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,119
at the quality of the people we get over

968
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:13,200
there and some of the comments and it

969
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:15,680
doesn't take too many comments of that

970
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,960
quality to really add some deeper

971
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:20,640
thinking to

972
00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:23,520
make my day so check out the skeptical

973
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:25,920
forum if you haven't and jump in don't

974
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:27,839
be afraid there's it isn't as bloody

975
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:30,640
knuckled as it might seem and we'll make

976
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:32,880
sure it isn't so you can do that you can

977
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:34,880
also connect with me on facebook trying

978
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:36,800
to be more active on facebook and

979
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:39,440
twitter and come on over there like the

980
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:42,240
page drop me a note and connect with me

981
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,240
that way as well so i have a number of

982
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:46,640
interesting shows coming up on skeptico

983
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:48,320
they're going to be coming out here as

984
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,160
soon as we can get to them

985
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:51,839
i do hope you stick around for all of